Truth or Justification

[Shodai]

Which is more important to you?

Discuss, this was something I was having an internal debate with myself in KFC

[Sunny]

I say truth in my honest opinion.

[Juggers]

Expand plox. What does this question mean really?

I'm picking justification either way, but I want to know what the question means before I try to argue my viewpoint.

[Shodai]

What do you consider the best value? It's incredibly open ended, but run with it

[Sunny]

Can you explain the question a little better please :ano

[Juggers]

Well, if I'm justified in doing something, then that means the world is bent to my viewpoint. I'm already doing something, but it just so happens that I'm right if I am justified.

Say you pulled a knife on me, but I managed to wrestle it away from you and brutally kill you. The law would say I'm justified, even though I was acting only half out of necessity and mostly out of want.

If I had the truth on my side, then usually I'd be acting in regards to it and bending myself for its sake. Additionally, truth is always subjective. It's the truth that DDT has harmful effects on wildlife and the environment, but its ban around the world has led to widespread disease and killer insect problems. They were acting out of truth when they instituted the ban, but they brought another dark truth with their actions.

Truth brings a moral victory which is fleeting. Justification brings a physical victory which is concrete. Give me justification whenever I can get it, and I'll be content to keep the truth in mind.

Take that, Snowy! :yell
I'm still a little confused about what I'm debating tho. :/

[Pluto]

I don't quite understand how they can be compared? Would you rather have the truth of have justification? I don't quite understand what it is your getting at.

Seeing as you ultimately cannot try to justify an action of yours without knowing the truth, they build off one another, though justifying something can turn into making excuses based off the truth of the matter.

I don't see the debate, but I do see a good convo.

[Sunny]

I would love to debate with both of you, but I don't really know how to debate this :ano
I'm in a debating mood though :kewl

[Johnnu]

Truth can be altered and I had a conversation with Meghan/Byakko about it.

You can lie to yourself about anything and lie to yourself that is the truth when its not and pass a lie detector test by lying.

Like...
I am missing a physical heart.

If you lie to yourself enough you can pass that lie detector saying you don't have a physical heart and thus the truth is altered and thus not truth.

Truth is overrated because truths change as much as people do.
Revisionist history proves this in the US.

In the North you learn that the civil war was started over slavery.
In the certain parts of the South you learn that the civil was was caused by the aggressive North.

Truth changes making it less true.

AND HOLY FUCKING SHIT I'M APPLYING WHAT I LEARNED IN COLLEGE ON THE INTERNETS WTF IS WRONG WITH ME.
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@Juggy: Trust me I know the Self Defense one first hand.
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@Dogma: I think he is asking what is better to an ending/closing.

[Springlake]

Equal moderation of both.

For simply holding one above the other means that the end result will become bad either way.

[mug]

Does this question mean "Do you value the truth no matter what or do you value a justified lie, i.e. to spare someone's feelings?".

If that's the question, I would say truth is always better. Truth is truth, and we'll all learn it eventually one way or another, to spare someone's feelings forever can't be right. However, to make someone feel bad about themselves is wrong. :/


On another note, one person's reality, or "truth", can be completely different from another person. Truth is influenced by ones culture, nationality, and family. In some parts of the world, people are told all their lives things that someone from the western world would never dream of thinking, yet, it is their truth as directed by their culture.


edit;
i just fucking contradicted myself 5 times in this post lol

[Cax]

Justification in many cases is the truth.

[Johnnu]

Justification in many cases is the truth.

Can you explain?

[Code]

Well, if I'm justified in doing something, then that means the world is bent to my viewpoint. I'm already doing something, but it just so happens that I'm right if I am justified.

Say you pulled a knife on me, but I managed to wrestle it away from you and brutally kill you. The law would say I'm justified, even though I was acting only half out of necessity and mostly out of want.

If I had the truth on my side, then usually I'd be acting in regards to it and bending myself for its sake. Additionally, truth is always subjective. It's the truth that DDT has harmful effects on wildlife and the environment, but its ban around the world has led to widespread disease and killer insect problems. They were acting out of truth when they instituted the ban, but they brought another dark truth with their actions.

Truth brings a moral victory which is fleeting. Justification brings a physical victory which is concrete. Give me justification whenever I can get it, and I'll be content to keep the truth in mind.

Take that, Snowy! :yell
I'm still a little confused about what I'm debating tho. :/

...truth is not necessarily moral, and truth is not necessarily fleeting. It also should not be always counted as fact...since the two are separable... example: "the boy who cried wolf" did it actually happen? probably not, unless he was just a retarted shepard. but let's say it didn't. the story is not fact, but the truth it gives us "tell enough lies and eventually people will stop listening" is just as valid as if the story were true...

Ideas/morals, while not as tangible, I would argue can skip through time far more easily now with recorded histories...and had done a fair job already without the prolific recordings of the last 400 years...
give the solid things time...even the colliseum will fall eventually....

justification requires a single person developing a rationale for a thing, simply a means of approving a means to achieve an end.

The nazis for example, did a heck of a job justifying the blatant persecution of the Jews. that's the justification...yet, say 40 years from now, when the last of the survivors of that experience are dead, what will be left behind are the truths, telling us the horrors of what people are capable of...I know the United states is far from the best place for a global perspective but from what I've seen, it's not the motives of the Regime that are primarily remembered, they fall under an categorical umbrella of "evil".... what's remembered is that 6,000,000 people were slaughtered under a warped ideology that encompassed a nation, and it's a terrifying thought to see it happen again...

...I'd pick truth...and mention there are only some aspects of the two principals that can really be argued...